Interview: Leica's Roland
Wolf and Justin Staley Talk New M-Monochrom Camera and Black & White
Photography
By Complex Magazine | Sep 10,
2012 | 1:56 pm
Revolution vs. Evolution.
Which is better? In the world of consumer electronics, the former is always
more marketable than the latter. But is it better? If you ask the folks at
Leica, one of the world's most renowned camera companies, they would say, No.
Since it's founding in 1913, Leica has worked tirelessly to refine its line of
cameras, tinkering with and pushing the limits of what a compact camera can do.
All that tweaking has lead to the release of one of Leica's most noteworthy
models: the M-Monochrom. A black and white camera based on its time-tested M
camera base.
Complex’s Video Director,
Jonathan Lees, took a trip down to the new Leica Store and Gallery in
Washington, DC to see the new exhibit of photographer, Jacob Aue Sobol’s new
black and white works exclusively utilizing the new Leica M-Monochrom camera.
While there, he had a chance to sit down for a lengthy discussion with some key
players from the legendary German camera brand including VP of Marketing and
Corporate Retail, Roland Wolf, and Product Specialist Justin Staley.
Interview by Jonathan Lees
Leica has an involved and
interesting history. How are you guys telling a story, now, to modern digital
consumers and modern photographers?
Roland Wolf: Over the years,
we created a set of values that we live by. Our past is our future. What we did
is create an instrument. Whether there’s film in it or whether there’s a sensor
in it, is really irrelevant because the values and virtues of a rangefinder
camera are really irrespective of if you shoot film or digital. Especially
these days where it’s not so much about achieving a certain quality level
anymore, as it was when you were first entering digital, when you were really
able to tell a difference between a film image ‘cause of its characteristics
and its resolution and how it appeared. And today...the Monochrom is really a
camera [where] the image feels like film. But, you know, the thing is, the M
system is really what a lot of people, when they hear of Leica, think of,
because it’s the tool that was used by a lot of the most respected
photojournalists when photojournalism emerged and had it’s heyday with LIFE
magazine and Time magazine. When we entered the digital world, we wanted to
continue that system. So we were really trying to find a solution that made it
possible for our customers and our photographers to continue using an M camera
the way they were used to, and the lenses that they have been using for many
years. For us, it’s a continuation.
Like an old Schott leather
jacket, or Red Wing boots, there's been a resurgence of classic, timeless
design. And I noticed that when the [Leica] M came out, people were gravitating
towards this camera. And I feel that the rest of the camera industry was
stumbling, trying to figure out what the consumer wanted.
RW: I think you are spot on,
and I would have to go back to my product manager days, which was 2000, 2001.
That’s when we started a whole new line of compact cameras. Obviously, I would
look at the competition, and I would go to these shows where other brands would
present the new compact cameras. And not only was I a trained photographer, but
also a product manager for digital compact cameras, and I couldn’t figure out
how these cameras worked. So, I would stand there and play with some of these
oddly shaped, oddly colored cameras, thinking, Why are you trying to reinvent
the wheel? Since photography has such a rich history and cameras were designed
in a certain way for a reason. People are not only used to it, but, the way
these cameras evolved, there’s a reason for it. Sometimes you don’t have to
reinvent the wheel—what you have is a good thing. Just because it switched from
film to digital, doesn’t mean you have to change everything around it.
Was there any hesitation from
Leica utilizing full manual controls for a new digital form?
RW: I was in Germany still at
the time. We’re a small company. I think that it’s an advantage sometimes, and
sometimes it’s a disadvantage. But we are very close to our customers. We are
very close to those that use our products. I don’t think a day goes by in
Germany where we don’t have a professional coming in to talk to the product
manager or talk to our Leica staff about their experiences with the product.
People were asking for a digital rangefinder. So it’s kind of an informal
market study. Market research. You get the feedback. Of course, we have been
building M cameras at that time for 46 years. So for us, it made sense to continue
the M system. And it comes back to what I said earlier, because of the
advantages that a rangefinder has for street photography and for
photojournalism. And what we felt was still valid. We got that feedback from
the market, too. Doesn’t mean there aren’t other areas that you couldn’t
explore, but this is really what Leica stands for, and continuation makes sense
for us.
Is it because you did so well
with the M system that you were allowed to experiment and bring it back to
something people loved photographically or was this [the Leica M-Monochrom]
something that truly tested well with photographers? Obviously 50 Magnum
photographers wouldn’t come to Leica and tell you to put something into
production. Why did you make a black and white camera?
RW: The idea had been out for
a while. You’re asking a good question, whether it was based on the success of
the M9. I think it helped because the idea was a lot older. The theory of
creating a black and white sensor was something that we’ve been kicking around
for quite some time. Did the success of the M9 help to make the push to realize
it? I would say yes. Most likely. But is has been something that we have been
discussing and thinking about for a while.
Justin, as a product
specialist, what have you seen put into this camera that’s sort of
unprecedented; that’s different than the way Leica has built other digital Ms?
Justin Staley: Besides the
sensor, besides the way it’s processing through and creating files...the beauty
of it is, it’s just another M camera. The menus are the same. The control
buttons are the same. That’s really, to me, one of the things about the M
system, that keep its linearity: If I would pull an M-3 from 1954, and put it
right here on the ground, besides the wind lever on top and the screen on the
back of it, it looks virtually identical. And I always chuckle and laugh when
I’m out someplace with an M9 under my shoulder, and I walk into a restaurant
and a waiter says, “Hey, nice old-school camera.” Half the time, I say, “Hey,
thanks, man,” and the other half of the time, if I’m feeling cheeky, I’ll turn
and frown, and show them the screen on the back. They will be like, “That’s
digital?” It’s that lineage. It’s that longevity. That’s why I usually go with
the Porsche 911, because it’s that lineage of car. It’s evolutionary, not
revolutionary. It’s evolving. It’s taking in and messing with the design.
Tweaking what’s there, what’s special about it, and celebrating that.
I understand there are
photographers that would lose their minds over this but how do you convince a
public that this [shooting with a Monochrom] is any different than desaturating
an image, using Silver EFX, Lightroom, or Photoshop?
JS: There’s just something
inherent to the way the sensor works and sees. When you have a color sensor,
you’ve got a whole process that happens to the data of the chip, because you
got a pixel that’s red, a pixel that’s green, and a pixel that’s blue. You’ve
got that division of data. So I’ve got a data point that’s green, that’s red, that’s
blue. On a digital camera with a bayer filter, I have “what’s my red value
here?” And “what’s the green value?” And “what’s the blue value?” The camera
has the process of demosaicing, where it takes those little color tiles and
blends them together, and multiple pixels become the data for one. People say
the [Monochrom] camera is three more times the resolution. It’s not 3x the
resolution. They are looking for a number to justify it. And it’s not a number,
it’s the way the process works.
Demosaicing is a really
interesting term, but if you think about a mosaic on the wall, you stand fifty
feet [away] and look at it, you see the image. You walk up and put your nose up
to it, you see this tile is orange, that one’s blue. And you see different
shapes and the different patterns of it. And when you step back from it, and it
snaps back into that picture. And that’s sort of what’s happening here. But not
having that process in the camera is allowing it to resolve much finer detail.
But the other thing I noticed, being a black and white photographer, something
about black and white film, and the way it captures an image, and the tonality,
and the smoothness of tone in that image. This camera, with the way the sensors
see light. And the way that they’d profiled it...when you suck these images in
the lightroom, they’re flat. They’ve got this amazingly smooth tonal range that
seems to just go forever. And having that ability to capture even in a bright
sun, is a really contrasty scene. And keeping details in your highlights. And
keeping details in your shadows. And then being able to say okay, what do I
want?
And that is what the public
is just starting to understand. They are getting to know about dynamic range.
It’s now becoming a marketing tool for other cameras. That’s what made black
and white so interesting...it’s not just black and white. There are tonal
shades into the millions.
JS: And that’s the thing
about film: Film had these amazing smooth shifts of color. And it’s hard to see
that on the monitor. You can’t see that projected. Looking at Jacob’s [Sobol]
work on the prints on the wall...That makes me want to challenge some people. I
want to shoot some film, [and compare it] side by side, to this. And see what
the results are. See what kind of results I’m truly getting out of it because I
think it will give a run for its money. I was already making M9 files. I was
just talking to someone in a black and white workshop that I teach, I have
20x30-inch prints made of black-and-white conversions off of a M9. And when you
see that they are basically grainless—I’m at a 400 ISO, it’s virtually
grainless. I’ve shot tons of Tri-X over the years. Tri-X shoots at 20x30. It’s
got grains. It’s got texture to it. And to have that ability, it’s almost this
[feeling of]...”Wait a minute, this doesn’t feel right. That was 400 ISO.”
Because I’m so used to having this grain, that texture, the silver quantity in
that image.
RW: I’m glad you are asking
these questions, because this was exactly the reason why I wanted Jacob’s work
over here. I think you need to see the work and the print to understand what
the camera can do. Cause I, quite frankly, was a little shocked when we made
the announcement and to see reactions from educated photographers: Just
questioning the existence of that camera, and why wouldn’t you just work with a
raw file and remove all the color information? It’s not the same. It’s
absolutely not the same. You cannot produce what this camera does, with a true
black and white sensor, with a color camera. The Bayer has a lot to do with it.
You’re not interpolating the information. You don’t have the software trying to
piece things together. You have one pixel, and that pixel doesn’t have that
color filter in front of it anymore. So it’s either full or empty. It fills up
much quicker. By removing those color filters, you get a lot more energy into
the pixel, which means you actually increase the ISO of the filter. So the
noise levels go down. You increase the ISO. You increase the resolution, just
by removing that Bayer filter. The theory of removing that Bayer filter has a
lot to do with the camera having a higher resolution, less noise. Not in pixel
count, but as in, what it can display, the level of information it can display.
Does affect aliasing at all?
JS: The M cameras haven’t
used an AA filter at all. There’s software embedded in the camera, looking for
moiré that’s trying to automatically kill it when it sees it. Not having color
information, I’m not sure moiré is possible on this camera. I haven’t done the
test to see. Where you’re getting moiré is when a single pixel is a piece of
data. The example I give at a workshop is: You are photographing at the beach.
At some distance, a grain of sand will be the size of the pixel. So, you have a
red grain of sand, a green grain of sand, and a blue grain sand. And
de-mosaicing can’t figure this out cause it doesn’t have any overlap. It
doesn’t have any edges to latch on to. So it’s seeing these individual things,
that’s why you get that pattern that looks prismatic. If you magnify the image,
you see the red dot, green dot, blue dot. This doesn’t have the red, green, and
blue dots. It just has amplitude.
Why is black and white, film
or digital, so romantic? Why do black and white images seem to be always
interpreted as “realistic”?
JS: Ralph Gibson—New York
City photographer; fine art, nude photographer—would tell you that color
photography is two steps removed from reality because it’s a fraction of time.
It’s freezing time. And it’s two dimensional. It’s two degrees removed from
reality. As soon as we go to black and white, we are three degrees removed from
reality. Something magical happens at that point. I’m going to say the ordinary
to extraordinary. We don’t see the world in black and white. We see the world
in color. There’s a simplification that happens. In our mind it’s just a bit
more complex. And as a photographer, if you photograph in color, Julia’s red dress
against the white wall separates her from that white wall. But if I was to
photograph her in black and white, I have to now know the tone of her dress
will respond in a certain shade of gray. And her skin tone is going to respond
in a certain shade of gray. And where does that fall? And what happens to it?
Well, red and green reproduce basically the same thing, same tone of gray. It
disappears. And that’s when you start using color filters. That’s where the
creativity starts to come in.
That’s where the M-Monochrom
opens up for you. I can pull out my old red-25 filter, put it on the camera,
and change the color. Now my sky is going to go dark. Skin tone is going to go
white. Go porcelain. I can do those effects in camera. “Okay, Lightroom, black
and white, red...and slide it to make adjustments.” I can shoot it that way and
get the effect. If I put a red filter on a M9, I’ve just eliminated all my
green pixels and all my blue pixels. I’m relying on digital conversions to do
that. It really is a different experience, a different process. And I feel
Leica is very attuned with the craft of photography. It’s got art and it’s got
science. It’s the blending of those two things that make it interesting. But I
think [the problem] with digital is that we forget that craft. It comes down to
how can we push pixels around? How much can we manipulate? When do you say
when? Think about the old guys in the darkroom, and having some of that
control, and having some of that magic, that really happens. It’s having your
fingers wet in the chemistry. I think some of the romance comes back with this.
The romance of black and white comes back with it. We have the control. Where
you as the artist, make the decisions and decide how you want the image to be
printed. The tonality of it, and the feel of it. The contrast of it. How black
your blacks are and how white your whites are. Do you want your picture to be
dark? Be Lynchian and be Film-Noir. Deep dark, rough, gritty kind of look. I
photograph that way.
[The camera] is for those who
know, as photographers, exactly what they want. The people who truly go out
there to take pictures to “make” a moment. To make it personal. To make it
historical. It’s a hard sell but, to me, you guys just sold it.
JS: It’s an unique product.
That to me is Leica. We are very much into making a specialized product. That’s
what has kept us around. We haven’t tried to make a tool for everyone. Often
times, if I’m talking to a class about the introduction to range finders, I’ve
got people who haven’t used a range finder before. They’ve only used a SLR. I
will often equate a SLR camera to a Swiss Army knife. It does everything well.
Anything you want to do photographically, you can do with a SLR camera. And the
M camera is really like a specialized tool. I’ll equate that to a chef’s knife.
If you want to chop vegetables, a chef’s knife is way more efficient. There are
certain things a chef’s knife will do extreme efficiently, but if I want to
open up a can, which one’s better? The swiss army knife is better than opening
up a can of soup. By realizing we are a specialized tool and not trying to do
everything. It’s to me one of the things that kept the brand very special.
http://www.complex.com/tech/2012/09/interview-leica-roland-wolf-justin-staley-m-monochrom-camera
Beste eigenaar van: blogger.com,
ReplyDeleteHet programma, welke in het filmpje te zien is, mag u gratis aan
uw bezoekers weggeven. Zo kunt u uw bezoekers een zeer handige tool
aanreiken en heeft u een mooie manier om uw e-mail lijst te
maken.
Ga hiervoor naar de website die in het filmpje te zien is en download de bestanden.
(voor Mac en PC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NejM_NxfqM
Met vriendelijke Groet,
Frans
Also visit my web blog ... Verzekeringen Vergelijken